Building Big Dreams with Drew & Sarah
Episode Details
Transcript
What happens when two ambitious entrepreneurs fall in love, start a family, and build separate businesses at the same time?
In this episode, we sit down with Drew and Sarah (Matton) Butterworth to talk about entrepreneurship, marriage, parenthood, intentional living, and pursuing work you love.
Drew is the founder of goodvibes juice co., Ontario's fastest-growing cold-pressed juice brands. After leaving a successful corporate sales career, he followed a passion for health and wellness and spent the last decade building a business from the ground up. Along the way, goodvibes juice co. appeared on Dragon's Den and has grown into a nationally recognized brand.
Sarah is the founder of 10 Talent Management, one of Canada's leading talent agencies representing performers in film, television, commercials, and theatre. Before becoming an agent, Sarah spent years as a professional dancer and performer, including performing with Drayton Entertainment and working throughout the musical theatre industry.
Together, they are raising two young boys while navigating the challenges and rewards of building separate businesses under the same roof.
We talk about why neither of them took the traditional path, what it's really like being an entrepreneurial couple, how they balance ambition with family, and the advice they'd give anyone who feels stuck in a career that no longer feels aligned.
In This Episode We Talk About:
- How Sarah and Drew first met (and why Sarah had to track Drew down afterwards)
- Leaving the security of a corporate career to start a business
- Building goodvibes juice co. from a single storefront into a growing brand
- Sarah's journey from professional dancer to talent agent
- Why passion matters more than chasing a paycheck
- The reality of entrepreneurship behind the scenes
- Raising young children while building businesses
- The advantages and challenges of being an entrepreneurial couple
- Why failure is often the fastest path to growth
- Advice for anyone feeling stuck in their career or life
From entrepreneurship and marriage to young kids and big dreams, this conversation feels less like an interview and more like sitting down with friends who are figuring it out alongside you. We hope you enjoy it.
EPISODE LINKS & REFERENCES
Connect with Drew
Connect with Sarah
We’d love to connect with you. Here’s where to find us:
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On this podcast, we explore what it means to get UNBLOCKED.
You’ll hear stories about finding clarity, navigating career pivots, and choosing to live with intention. Sometimes that’s through conversations with guests who made bold moves and changed direction. Other times it’s just the two of us unpacking the books, ideas, and lessons shaping our own journey.
We’re not experts looking down from a stage. We’re in it too. Building, questioning, adjusting, and trying to create lives that feel more aligned, more alive, and more intentional.
Speaker 0
This is the Unblock Yourself podcast, our podcast where we have conversations together or with people who are chasing their dreams and living an intentional and unblocked life. Today's episode is a special one for a few reasons. It was our very first podcast that we recorded fully in person in a sweet new studio and the first time we've ever had a married couple on the show. Our guests are Drew Butterworth and his wife, Sarah Matten Butterworth. Drew is an ex corporate world hustler who left it all behind to follow a passion. He's now the cofounder of Good Vibes Juice, which is a cold pressed juice and wellness company that has grown from one single storefront in twenty sixteen into a nationally recognized brand. Sarah is a former professional dancer and performer who is now the founder of ten Talent Management, one of Canada's leading talent agencies representing performers in film, television, commercials, and theater. These two are seriously impressive. We were excited about this conversation because even though they're building two separate businesses under one roof instead of just one business like us, we're both navigating a lot of the same things. Entrepreneurship, marriage, ambition, kids, and building something that they genuinely love. They're also just super humble, down to earth, and so fun to be around. We got the story of how they met, and it's such a good one. And we talked about leaving corporate careers, building businesses from scratch, balancing family and work, and how they navigate both, you know, chasing those big goals at the same time, again, under one roof. We finish the episode by doing a shot together. A good vibes wellness shot that is, not a tequila shot. Although, after hearing how they met, maybe tequila deserves a tequila shot. Although after hearing how they met, maybe tequila deserves a little credit too. We hope you adore and respect these two as much as we do. Here's our conversation with Sarah and Drew. Speaker 1
Guys, welcome. So glad you're here. This is our first in person podcast. And Whoop whoop. Yeah. We're pumped to have the chance to do this to you guys. Speaker 2
Thanks for having us. Speaker 1
Yeah. So Excited. We were kinda saying before, Drew, we had a chance to meet in person, and felt like this would be a good time. But, Sarah, this is our first time actually meeting you. So we were like, we gotta make sure the vibe is good. Like, that the connection is there. It's feeling like we're I think we're off to a good start. Speaker 0
We knew it would be. Yeah. Speaker 3
I'm ready. Speaker 1
Ready to go. So we we had a few things we wanted to to talk about. I mean, people who listen to the podcast, they're interested in entrepreneurship, entrepreneur stories. Uh-huh. And we've also got a lot in common with you guys in that you've, you know, entrepreneurs, but you're also married couple, but you're not doing it together. So we have a whole bunch of stuff we'd love to dig into with you. But if you could, maybe and I'm I'm not sure if this should go to Drew or Sarah. Maybe it starts with Sarah. I would love to know, like, just out of the gate, how did you guys meet? Because you're successful entrepreneurs now. Speaker 0
Oh, no. Speaker 1
But let's let's let's take it back to the the beginning. Where how did you guys meet and Speaker 0
This doesn't have to be a real story. So you tell us whatever version you wanna tell us. Speaker 3
Well, the real story is we met at Beartown. Speaker 1
Okay. Speaker 3
And it was a a night where I was meeting up with some friends. Drew was out with his partner Lloyd, Speaker 1
and Speaker 3
I needed an extra chair. Speaker 2
Yeah. Speaker 3
So I went to get the chair, and he said, yeah. Sit down. And I said no, and I took the chair. Speaker 1
Oh, nice move. Speaker 2
But was it time? Have the chair if you sit down beside me. She laughed in my face, took the chair, and walked away. Speaker 1
Good start. Speaker 3
But there was a bit of banter back and forth at the bar. He sent me over a drink. Speaker 1
Oh, good move. In a bag? Speaker 3
Yeah. There was, like, a deal about surprise drink in a bag that night. Speaker 2
She was drinking a beer out of a bag, and I was, like, get her whatever Speaker 1
she's doing. Speaker 3
Drink? Not your business. And then he was kind of awkwardly taking pictures. Like, it was kind of in any other night, I would have thought it was creepy. Speaker 1
Because I was like Speaker 2
disclosure, Lloyd was like, let's have, like, three shots of tequila before we go out that night. It's gotta save money at the bar. You're really early stages, very tough up for cash, so that's, like, a financial decision to to do that. Speaker 1
Makes sense. So I Speaker 2
was, like, a little more playful than I would normally do. Speaker 3
Just come back from Costa Rica as well. Speaker 2
So it was very Pura Vida vibes. Speaker 0
Pura Vida, baby. Yeah. Yeah. So, anyway, Speaker 3
there was a little bit of back and forth, but my girlfriend sent him off, and he didn't even leave his number. Like, he didn't try to pick me up to which I was Confused. Yeah. I was kind of offended at the end of the day. So then I had to, like, sleuth and find out who this guy was. He only told me he worked at a juice store. So I'm googling juice stores Kitchener Waterloo. I had to go find him. And then I went into his store, and he wasn't there on Mondays because he did deliveries on Mondays. Speaker 1
So I Speaker 3
had to drop, like, twenty eight dollars on juice and come back the next day. Speaker 0
Oh my god. Speaker 3
So that's actually, like, I pursued him, actually, and that's how we met. Speaker 1
Oh my gosh. What Drew, what's this like, what what was the magic of like, there must have been something about either the drink or you creepily taking photos that really drew Sarah in. Was it was there a look? Was there a look you gave? Speaker 2
She's obviously a good looking lady. So Speaker 1
that Lady. Speaker 2
You know, caught my eye. And I don't know. Usually, I'm not that like, I don't know. I'm kind of an introvert, kind of an extrovert, somewhere in the middle, I think. And I don't know. Like, that night, I was just kind of feeling more extroverted and, like, a bit more out there. Yeah. And, was just in a really good place mentally, I think, despite, like, being a little buzzed. Like, when her friend was like, hey. This is, like, you know, thanks for coming over, guys, but, like, it's girls' night. We were just, like, later. And we, like, dipped, and there was no, like, I don't know. We just we didn't care. We're, like, whatever. Onto the next one. You know? Totally. So we were just having a good time. Speaker 1
Really drew me in. Yeah. Speaker 2
I think it's kind of yeah. I mean, it kind of does, though. Right? Like Yeah. Like, Speaker 0
That's a power move. Like, to leave knowing, like, oh, there's this thing and then you just leave. Like, I'd be that way too. It's like, who is that guy? Like, he didn't even ask me for my number after all of that. Yeah. Speaker 2
And then she gave me a hard time because she came to the juice shop, and I didn't, like, hit on her or ask her for a number. And I was like, you know, there's a lot of good looking girls that go through a juice shop. Do that to each one. You're gonna be like a creep and, like Speaker 1
Nobody's coming back Speaker 2
to the Nobody's coming back. So, like, you have to really, you know, be careful Speaker 3
about switch the roles. Like, I was like, what does a girl gotta do to get a date? Right? Yeah. Totally. I Speaker 0
had to work really hard. So good. Speaker 2
I was, like, trying to be, like, professional, but, like, still let her know, like, I was interested. So Speaker 0
Mission accomplished. Yeah. Speaker 1
It works. Speaker 0
And that was how many years ago? Seventeen. Seventeen. Twenty seventeen. Okay. Alright. Coming up on ten years. Speaker 1
So it's Speaker 2
actually cool because I have a picture of her from the first time I met her. So it's, like, across the bar at Beartown, and she's, like, sitting over there with her, like, her her beer. Speaker 3
Yeah. Her beer and a bag. Speaker 1
Cider. Yeah. As a, like, as a dating tip to, like, any kid that you're talking to at any point. Right? It's like, just take a picture of the girl from across the bar. You know? You never know if that's the one. Right? You never know. I don't know if that's a winning strategy. Speaker 2
Yeah. Speaker 0
So good. I love that. Yeah. Speaker 2
It's pretty funny, really. Speaker 0
Too good. But, Drew, you and I have some history. So we go I was trying to remember what year we might have met, but maybe two thousand seven. Does that check out? Speaker 2
Yeah. I think so. Speaker 0
Yeah. Around that. Right? That's Speaker 2
when I started at Blackberry. Speaker 0
Okay. So two thousand seven, we were working at Blackberry together, and then I left or I was pregnant, and then I got let go on that leave, which feels highly illegal. But Yeah. Anyway They Speaker 1
they probably paid a good severance. Speaker 0
They did. They did. They were generous with the severance. Then we didn't see each other for a few years, and then you started working with my ex husband. Speaker 1
Yep. Speaker 0
Yep. So you're working with him. So we've just had, yeah, some cross paths. Speaker 2
Yeah. Totally. Speaker 0
But what I wanna know is so now you're this very successful entrepreneur. Good vibes juice. Speaker 2
I would put an asterisk. Speaker 1
No. No. No. It depends on how you're feeling in the given day. Let's put it that way. Speaker 0
Like, successful in Dragon's End. There's a lot going on in your life. Yeah. And you've been very successful. Thank you. What I wanna know is how did you switch? So you're in the corporate world. Yeah. You're, like, selling software. Speaker 1
Yeah. Speaker 0
You know, grinding that way. Like, what what point you're, like, you know what? I'm gonna go all in on Juice. Speaker 2
Honestly, it was it was passion. Yeah. It it was good money in the corporate world, and, like, I enjoyed my time at Blackberry. A lot of great people like yourself. I really liked working with Ryan and Flavio at Logisense. Speaker 0
They're a Speaker 2
good time Speaker 3
for sure Speaker 2
and, and, like, super fun and rewarding to work for too. But in terms of, like, what I was doing day to day, I was working for money. Mhmm. I wasn't really doing something that made me feel, like, inspired or passionate. Speaker 1
Mhmm. Speaker 2
And, I just knew that I wanted to do something that I would look back on and be like, regardless of success or not, like, I did something that I wanted to do, I believed in. I had been in, like, interested in health and wellness and, was doing, like, smoothies and juices at home. And, you know, I've started to see juice companies in other markets, and there wasn't really anything like that in KW. So I thought, maybe that's something I could do. And anytime I had to, like, influence the friend to start exercising or eating better or family member and you got that feedback, I made a change because, like, you influenced me, that, like, felt passion inside of me, whereas I never felt that in my corporate world. So I was like, I'm gonna go out and try something different that's more aligned with passion. And hopefully, in the end, the financial result will still be there too. But, but, yeah, it was it was really fueled by just not wanting to wake up and be sixty and Speaker 1
Yeah. Be like, Speaker 2
what the fuck did I do with my life? Speaker 0
Totally. And that's a really scary jump to make, you know, especially when you're used to Speaker 2
But I wasn't scared at all, to be honest with you. Speaker 0
Okay. Tell me Speaker 1
about that. Speaker 2
Felt scared one bit. Like, I remember my uncle being like, you must be crazy to be doing this. And I don't know. I didn't I was never scared. I just felt I mean Yeah. I didn't have any dependence. You know, my situation lent itself really well to starting a business. Speaker 1
Mhmm. Speaker 2
But, yeah, I was never scared. I was always like, things will work out. And even if they don't, like, work out, they will, like, find a way of getting to where they're, like, supposed to be. So, yeah, I was never scared. Speaker 1
And on the on that timeline, what was the so two thousand two thousand seven, you're working together? Yep. Just in at LogiSense. Yep. Meet Sarah in twenty seventeen. Yep. Where is the where does the Juice? Speaker 2
Juice opened. We opened our doors in twenty sixteen. Speaker 1
Sixteen. K. Yeah. Speaker 2
Alright. Yep. Speaker 1
So we'll come back to some of that story. Sarah, so also a successful entrepreneur, two talent agencies that you've run, but you're right. Speaker 3
Yeah. Actually, Speaker 1
Is they separate or are they the same? Speaker 0
Yes. So I And Speaker 1
before you start Yeah. Because you were a professional dancer, and actress as well, would it would it have been a combination? Or I Speaker 3
would lean really strongly into the dancing k. Portion of things. Speaker 1
Okay. So you're you're doing something, presumably, that you love Mhmm. And then see a way to maybe offshoot from that. So a little bit unlike what you're doing, Drew, is doing something but perhaps see a parallel opportunity. What does that transition look like for you in terms of what was the dance career? Maybe a bit of context on that. And then what did that transition look like for you? Speaker 3
Yeah. So I grew up training as a dancer. I was a competitive dancer. I went to Ryerson, now TMU, for the dance program. I worked on a cruise ship, and then I kind of accidentally fell into musical theater. I did not train as a singer growing up, not as an actor. I knew very little about musicals at all, actually, and kind of accidentally fell into the musical theater industry. That's why I came to Kitchener Waterloo because I started working for Drayton Entertainment a lot. And usually these contracts are six to eight weeks. So you pack up all your stuff. You live in a bill you bill it out of a room somewhere in town, and then you go back home. So there's so I ended up coming here. And I did that for about ten years. Alongside of that, I I co ran a temp agency for dance teachers called Kwikball Change Speaker 1
Yeah. Speaker 3
Which is like a play on Kwikball Change. Okay. Love it. Quick. And it was because I was teaching dance with, my business partner, Steven, and we're teaching in Coburg, Ontario. And he was booking all these jobs doing national tour of Mary Poppins. We're like, who's coming to Coburg to cover you? We need a list of people. We need a list of people. So that, created quick ball change, which we ran for about ten years. But it what we found was it was hard to scale that. Like, you're taking ten percent of what a dance teacher makes. Speaker 1
And it Speaker 3
was very convenient. It was great for the industry, but it was a lot of work because we had to drop everything and find a dance teacher for four o'clock in Toronto today who could teach tap jazz ballet. So it was it was busy. But that kind of gave me the idea of a talent agency because I had representation. I had a talent agent. And at the time, I was so ignorant. I was like, I could do this. How hard could it be? Knowing nothing about what it all kind of entails. And I'd actually reached it to a couple different talent agencies to maybe work alongside them, and it didn't it just didn't pan out timing wise to work for someone or underneath someone. So I launched on my own and kinda figured it out as I went. And that was in twenty eighteen that I launched. Speaker 1
Twenty eighteen. Okay. Mhmm. Speaker 3
And that's ten talent management. Ten talent management. Speaker 0
Yeah. That is so great. Speaker 1
Takeover. Speaker 0
Takeover. The And so did you stop performing altogether? Speaker 3
Yes. So it is actually a conflict of interest to be, like, a talent agent and a performer because you're competing with your clients. So you kind of have to hang up your shoes. But, I had known the last year that it was gonna be my last year, which is nice. I'd never wanted to go out I wanted to go to my own accord. There's a there's not a lot of autonomy of your your career in the biz. You're kind of at the mercy of what shows are happening, where they're happening, if it if you fit the show. And I never wanted to kinda be pushed out of the industry with the young up and comers, Speaker 1
and Speaker 3
I never wanted to get injured. So I was Yeah. In my thirties and, you know, eight shows a week. It's very difficult to have kids because your show starts at seven thirty, so you're not getting to do bedtimes. There's a lot of sacrifice, and it's a very selfish industry because you have to go where the work is. Speaker 1
Yeah. Speaker 3
So it got to a point that I was like, I love this business. I wanna stay in it, but I don't I don't think it's sustainable for me. Speaker 1
Mhmm. So I'm gonna jump a little bit from that. Sure. And then it might parallel back to you a bit, Drew. There's, there's a book that I'm obsessed with right now. What's it called? So it's called What to Make of a Life by an author named Jim Collins. Jim Collins wrote the book Good to Great, which is a business book. His approach to to writing as he does this this research, ten decades long research, assessments or evaluations where he does match pairs. So for Good to Great, it was take a company that has done okay, compare it to a company that's been great, do that across a bunch of companies, and figure out what are the things. What makes a company great? He thought of doing the same idea for people. So could we actually evaluate what makes people great? And there's a whole bunch of insights about the book. But one of the insights from these people who have lived extraordinary lives was that all people, good people, every person goes through, this idea. You've got peaks, cliffs where something changes, and then a period of fog. And what was interesting from his research is that cliffs happen. So for me, I have a, like, a catastrophic death that happens that creates a cliff, leads to fog. In other cases, you can anticipate a cliff. Professional athletes, musicians was one of the things that came up is there is an anticipated there's gonna be an end. And it was interesting for them to see and evaluate how people dealt with anticipating the end. So in your case, it's like you were anticipating the end. So did you always just wanna stay in the industry? You wanted to stay in the biz and this was a way to do that? Or did it just build momentum and it kinda carried you into it? Speaker 3
It kind of just unfolded for itself. I remember when I got into the industry, there was a girl in my in my show, and she was getting married, and she was gonna leave the biz and have kids. And she was so excited, and I thought she was nuts. Mhmm. It's like, why would you ever leave this industry? It's amazing. I love it so much. But as you get older, your goals start to change as well. It depends on who you are. There's people in this industry who are on the Stratford Festival right now, and they're fifty years old in the ensemble. And they're kicking and they're singing and they're dancing, and they look incredible. They're at the top of the industry in terms of the goals of a long committed contract. And it's just depending on the journey. And for me, I felt, like, I felt full. And how many more contracts did I want? And did I need? Or what did I need in my life? And I kinda wanted to shift, to a little bit more sustainability because, again, it's all out of your control for what the shows are and if there's work. And I wanted a little bit more control in my life at that point. Speaker 1
Got it. And if I can maybe come to you, Drew, on a similar sort of question. Mhmm. Like, this was a passion thing clearly for you. Like, did you hit a cliff from the like, in the software industry where you're like, I can do it and I can make money, but I'm I'm just burnt out from it, and that led to you kind of having to build this? Or was there not really a cliff for you? It was just sort of grew into a thing that you started to do over time. I Speaker 2
would say it was something that started maybe small as a thought and then, like, kind of grew over time. So maybe, like, it was a cliff that I could start to see coming down Speaker 1
You could see it. Speaker 2
Just coming towards me, and it just got I don't know. It grew or it got closer, however you wanna look at it. But, yeah, it just felt like, the calling to do something that would, like, light you up just felt, really strong. Speaker 1
Yeah. I love that. Speaker 0
I feel like entrepreneurs are, like, attracted to other entrepreneurs. So just curious about, like, do you think it's easier that you're both running your own businesses? Or or I guess it's a whole the question I think is, like, what makes it easier? Mhmm. And maybe what makes it harder? You're both building your own separate companies. I mean, the timeline of that, it's like twenty sixteen. You meet twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen. Like, you guys have a lot going on. And you don't have kids yet, presumably at that time. Right? At the time. But did you just get each other more? Like, maybe tell us a bit about that. Speaker 2
Do you wanna go or you want me to go? Speaker 0
Go ahead, dear. Speaker 2
Well, I think it's good in the sense that there's an understanding of the chaos that is, you know, running your own business. Yeah. You know, it's very demanding. There's no time boundaries. It's just kind of, like, part of your life. So the fact that we both experienced that, I think there's, like, good understanding between the two of us where it's like, Sarah's got a deadline at six o'clock. It's like, alright. Like, you know, as soon as I get home, I gotta, like, keep the boys occupied and out of her office as best I can. Yeah. And, so, like, that's really helpful because we both get it, and we try to, like, really support one another. But from a problem perspective, it's like everything still has to get done for both of us. So it's like, because of that, sometimes it's like, well, who's gonna, you know, who's gonna sacrifice a bit of time now so I can get it done? Or how do you put this puzzle together that you're both working on and it doesn't fit? So Speaker 0
Whose is more important? It's like, well, both are equally important. Right? Speaker 3
It's kind of an evaluation of in that moment, what's the urgent and important. Speaker 1
Yeah. Speaker 3
And then if it's not urgent, then once the kids can go to bed, then often, I will catch up on the important but not urgent. Speaker 1
Mhmm. Speaker 3
So it's who's on fire right now gets kinda gets to win. Speaker 2
She would work every night till eleven o'clock if if, if she could. Speaker 3
Oh my gosh. Speaker 2
I work often in the evenings, as well, but Sarah's she's a whole another level in terms of competitiveness and drive. She keeps me motivated. So Speaker 1
That's gonna, yeah, that's gonna have some benefit to it, I would think. Speaker 3
And also the respect. Like, you know, I know I've seen the the journey of Drew's growth in the business and where it was. Like, I saw his first store to the second store to COVID to to everything that's happened. So there's, like, a respect and understanding, and we really get the journey. So I I wanna support him in in his career as much as possible because he's done so well. So it's, yeah, it's drive and, you know, he's inspiring to me. It's like, wow. Look what he's built. I would say we're, like, our biggest fans as well. Speaker 2
For sure. Yeah. Speaker 0
Has there ever been a point where you're like, let's go all in on one business as a couple? Like, it's you know? Speaker 3
Like, is it Speaker 2
try to get her to come over because I know how good of a worker she is, but I know how much she loves music theater and film and TV and being an agent, and she's really good at it. So even if selfishly, I would want her to, I know that's she's in the right place for sure. Speaker 0
You wouldn't leave the Juice Wrld to go be like, hey. Speaker 3
She won't even put me on her roster. Speaker 1
She's trying to she gives me these Speaker 2
breakdowns, and I actually did get an audition for one. She let me go for that. Speaker 1
For real? Speaker 3
Yeah. But I didn't It was very specific. Speaker 2
It, but there was a lot of Oh. Background noise going on there. Speaker 1
But Speaker 3
They were looking for a red headed man who is into fitness, And then they came back and said, still looking. And They're like, Drew. Jessica said, should we put Speaker 0
him in? I said Speaker 1
Can you dance? No. Speaker 3
It's for a commercial. Speaker 1
Oh. Speaker 2
Well, I mean, yeah. I can I can dance a bit, but not professionally? No. Speaker 0
That's so specific. Like, I need a fit redhead male. Maybe it's not that specific. Speaker 3
The breakdowns are very specific in what they're looking for often for commercials. Right? So you're trying to fit the specs of and we're not normally bringing people in outside of our roster. In the COVID times with the bubbling, there were so many rules. Sure. The casting the commercial casting directors were trying to find what they needed in the circumstances that they had. Speaker 1
So continuing on this thread, I love that that you tried to get Sarah to good vibes. May and maybe. Right? Maybe there's a day that that that switches or or there's something different. Who who knows. Right? You can see from your faces that's not that's not on. That's not on. But let's you got two two boys. Is that right? Yeah. You got two boys. Do you mind if I ask how old they are? Speaker 2
Five and one. Speaker 1
Five and one. Two and one. Okay. So you're in the Speaker 0
Just in Speaker 3
the thick of it. Speaker 1
You're in the thick of it. Speaker 0
We call those the pain cave years. Hope that's not rude. But it's just like What is it? Those are the pain cave years. Oh, yeah. Young kids. It's just like, alright. There's still diapers. You are in it. Speaker 3
Yeah. In this bag. Speaker 2
Busy. Speaker 1
Yeah. And, I mean, they're so we've got our age range is eight to sixteen. And so we're starting to we we just started a year and a half ago. But there's been this really cool thing happening for us that the kids are kinda looking at what we're doing and starting to see, oh, like, you can just do whatever you wanna do and from their perspective and create a, you know, create a living or create a life. Do you have any point of view on that yet? I mean, the kids are young, and so you don't you didn't start when you had kids or even when you're together necessarily. But, like, do you have a point of view on what your you hope might rub off in your kids? Speaker 3
Looking at our oldest, we joke that he has to be an entrepreneur because I can't imagine him taking orders from somebody else. Speaker 2
Right. Extremely independent. Speaker 1
Yeah. Speaker 3
Based on his personality alone, I imagine he will go off and do whatever he wants to do. I don't I don't know if I have an opinion. I think I think whatever like, honestly, whatever they wanna do, if they do it with their whole heart, great. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2
Yeah. Leo loves coming to work with me and, like, seeing the forklift and the equipment. Speaker 3
Yeah. Speaker 2
He's, yeah. He's really into physical things, machinery, equipment, but he's got a lot of interest. So I don't know. Speaker 0
Yeah. Speaker 2
Leo any which way. Speaker 1
It's not even necessarily that they would be an entrepreneur so much as that they would just see that you're choosing something that may be harder than having a job and and likely not liking it. Lots of people have jobs that they don't like. And just to be feel some sense of empowerment to do something that you love, just being in an industry you're passionate about. Feels, yeah, feels like something that rubs off, for sure. My dad my dad's an entrepreneur, and I grew up. My daycare was from the age of eight or so, was the shop. Fixing bikes, building bikes, dusting bikes in the store, sharpening skates. And it always felt a bit like a disconnect working in an organization. And it only now, like, after years, the only time my dad's ever proudly talked about what my son is working on, at least to my knowledge, is this thing that is harder to describe in any job I've ever had. Yeah. It's like, he's making connections and then people are reaching out. Speaker 0
I talked to Speaker 1
your dad. And and so it's it's interesting that there's sort of a, I don't know, there was a thing that was embedded in me for sure. Speaker 3
And you think it was embedded? Speaker 1
Do you Speaker 3
think it was in you or do you think it was learned by watching him? Speaker 1
Well, let's talk about that. Because I think that that is an interesting topic. If I if I really think about it, for me, having seen it so I would my physical, like, retail was my context. And so you talk about your son seeing the forklifts and stuff. My dad would do special orders of clothing for schools and hockey teams. I got paid to lay out clothing in my living room and bag it according to what the orders were, like, the student's name on the school, then I would see all the different schools and I would make sure the medium goes in the bag with the small whatever. So I was, like, a laborer in my home. My dad and I would sit and talk about balance sheets at the dinner table, and so it was embedded in that way. Speaker 3
How I would love to know how young you were talking about balance sheets. Like, when can I start that? Speaker 1
Yeah. Such a well, actually, I have I have a vivid memory. I was in grade six and it was a choice to go from grade six to grade seven. They they had they saw or felt like I was bored in school and they wanted to create an opportunity for me to go to a private school, but I got to choose. And how we had the conversation was sitting down at the table in grade six and making a choice for grade seven. And I'm gonna share this. My dad poured me a small glass of port, man to man, heart to heart conversation. Speaker 0
Grade six. Speaker 1
Grade six. I know. I am. And and port, you know, not even a glass of wine. Maybe he had watered it down, but we we had this real conversation. But then I vividly remember making the call and then asking something about something and then because there are sheets of paper on the table and there are balance sheets that we dug in. So that is a vivid memory that was a grade six timestamp Speaker 3
Okay. On it. You have some time, Sarah. Okay. Speaker 1
Time. Yeah. Yeah. Missedless and time. So so just to not to but that the reason so that was that was definitely embedded or, like, that was the thing that was given, but I also don't remember that happening to the same degree with my siblings. I always had an interest. So I think there's also just a thing that's there. Speaker 2
So it's kinda funny that you said that, like, your dad giving you alcohol when you were young. And so, Speaker 1
like, when Speaker 2
I was really Where Speaker 1
are we going with that? Jumping back here because Speaker 2
this is, like, pretty funny connection. When I was little, I was sick. My dad made me this concoction of, I think, whiskey, honey. Speaker 0
Yeah. Lemon, maybe? Speaker 3
Or maybe lemon. Yeah. Speaker 2
And made me drink it when I was sick. Speaker 1
Yeah. Okay. Speaker 2
So I'm like, like, I don't know. Maybe somewhere deep down, that planted a seed of, like, starting a wellness shot for people that are sick one day. Speaker 1
Oh. And Oh. You know what Speaker 2
I mean? Speaker 0
Yes. I'm calling Speaker 1
you a concoction. Speaker 2
Yeah. Mixing your concoction and, like, you know, grandma's home remedies and stuff like that, but just thought, like, your dad giving you alcohol and, like, that maybe inspiring you down the road. Yes. Maybe that's another Speaker 1
There's a thing. Yeah. So give Leo right? Parenting note. Leo alcohol. Speaker 0
Concoction. Concoctions. Speaker 1
So yeah. Just and I and so I think that was on that thread of there's clearly something within each of you that was a willingness and a desire to create something of your own. Mhmm. Where that came from, hard to know. But Yeah. Whether it's your your parents. How about you? You talk about the story of your dad. You got into dance. Did your parents push you into dance, encourage that, or was that always a thing you wanted to do? Speaker 3
I had a lot of energy as a kid. Mhmm. I can remember kinda getting in a little bit of trouble. And I think when I found dance and, the discipline and the hard work and the repetitiveness and then the positive feedback, then I really leaned into that. And, like, trying to be a dancer is the hardest thing in the world. There's, like, a million of you. You need to fit in very specific models, which is expanded now. Speaker 1
Yep. Speaker 3
But I think just the repetitiveness, like, how many plays I've done in a year in my whole life. It's, like, hundreds of thousands. So the repetitiveness, like, I think that set me up for today. Speaker 2
Do you guys do, like, lemonade stands or anything like that? Like Speaker 0
Yeah. No. Not really. Like, I think I have a very different upbringing probably than anybody here. But, yeah, entrepreneurship. Although my dad ran gas stations. Speaker 1
Yes. For sure. Speaker 0
Okay. Yeah. He did. He had, like, a Mac store and ran gas stations in Calgary. Speaker 1
He's a, like, a hustler. Speaker 3
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Speaker 0
We've seen that. I guess so. But I but he lived in Calgary. So I only saw him in the summertime. I lived here anyway, that's a longer much longer story. I actually always thought I would just work for a company, and I would get promoted and move up in a said company. But I never really had this vision of having my own business, I think, until we started our relationship and then started talking about working together again. And then I think, like you drew, I kinda hit a wall of I don't give a shit about what I'm selling right now. Like, I can't talk about this thing Yeah. On one more call. I just don't wanna spend my time doing this. So then we started just talking about, okay. Well, let's be more intentional with what we're doing, with where how we're spending our time, what we're doing for work. I guess, maybe even question for you guys coming to this idea of intentionality. Do you both feel like you're living with intention and you're being intentional with how you're living today? Speaker 2
I'm getting better at it, Speaker 1
I would say. Speaker 2
I still find, you know, maybe I'm not as productive as I could be. Like, Sarah's hardcore. When I said that earlier, she is the hardest working person I know. She's like the Michael Jordan of the music theater agency world for real. Speaker 3
She's That's so sweet. Speaker 1
You are. Speaker 2
Like, she's crazy crazy driven. So she's kinda got me tricked into thinking if I'm sitting down, like, by the, like, nine o'clock at night, like, perusing Instagram, heaven forbid. Like, it's like crazy time. So, like Speaker 0
You're so lazy, Jordan. You're so lazy. Speaker 2
I'm gonna go for a run at whatever time of night in the rain because, like, if I just sit on my butt on the couch. So it's like, ah, you can go too far with that. But I am trying to be more intentional. And at the same time, I wanna make those changes. Like, I wanna be using my time and energy for things that, like, further me, not Speaker 1
Yeah. You can get some Speaker 2
good value off social media. There's no doubt. There's a lot of cool things out there. But Speaker 3
I would say you're very intentional. I think Drew is very intentional of what really matters in life. Like, family to Drew is everything. Spending time with family, being a good dad, laying in bed. He's always trying to be a better dad, like, before he goes to sleep. You know? You're intentional about the things that actually matter, and I think he has his priorities set up, and that is where he teaches me about the deep stuff that really matters. And do your Wim Hof at night as well. Like, I think Speaker 1
Gold planche? The Speaker 2
breath work? Speaker 3
The breathing? Oh, okay. Speaker 1
I mean, I Speaker 2
know you're, like, Speaker 1
cold blood. Speaker 3
We do a lot of the the things that are, you know, in the health space that are very popular right now. You love your steam room after the sauna after the gym. Yeah. Speaker 2
So I Speaker 3
think you are very intentional because we we have no time. And then, obviously, we get caught up in the minutia of the kids, and it gets stressful, and we have our moments. But I think you're very intentional. Speaker 2
Okay. Yeah. Speaker 1
Here we go. Speaker 0
Yeah. This is a good time. If your wife says it, it's true. Speaker 1
Do you think you're being intentional, Sarah? Sarah? And Drew gets to chime in on this. Yeah. He does. First. Yeah. Speaker 3
I I think I try to be very intentional. I think I'm a workhorse. And sometimes, to my detriment, I think my husband has to reel me back in because I will work as much as possible, which, again, like, our kids are only young once. So Yeah. It's balancing and the the guilt that you feel when you're away from your family. So I'm working on finding the balance of that because everything always seems urgent, important, on fire. I wanna get it done right now. Like, we keep our phones in another room because it's too hard not to check it. Yeah. So I have to, like when the kids are home, like, I have to take a break so I'm not fifty fifty ing it on both sides. Speaker 1
I like that. Speaker 2
I would agree with everything she said. She's a workhorse for sure. She keeps the house organized and on point, and it's constantly going from one task to another and very little downtime for herself. So but she kinda does it to herself too. Like, even yesterday, she does, judging for Dance Canada. Mhmm. So she'll, like, go and do these weekend competitions. And Speaker 1
Is that, like, a volunteer? Speaker 3
Oh, it's a pay. It's definitely a pay job. Speaker 1
Get it. Speaker 3
With fourteen hour days. Yes. Yeah. Better be paid. Speaker 2
It's cool. Like, we just go and visit, and we get to see, like, mom with the other judges. It's, like, really cool production. Actually, local business as well, actually. Speaker 3
You should talk to Jamie Kovarik Yeah. Actually. Okay. Speaker 1
Okay. Who's Speaker 3
that? He is the owner and director of Dance Canada. Okay. He's done it for he's been a competitive director for, I think, twenty years now. But he went off on his own. I think it was twenty ten Okay. That he went off on his own. Yeah. And it's a fam it's very family run. His wife's involved. His kids, you know, in laws are involved. Like, it's family community. Speaker 1
Cool. Speaker 3
Anyway, so I have a lot of loyalty to Jamie Kovarik. Speaker 1
Jamie, we're coming for you. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2
Jamie, if you're listening, she can't work Speaker 1
on Canada. This year. I'm sorry. Speaker 2
I've booked her out. Speaker 1
We're definitely gonna miss too, Jamie. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2
So So that's just another example. Like, she she'll fill her schedule and go go go. She's still a great mom. Don't, get me wrong. Speaker 1
Yeah. She's It's her best. She's the best mom. Speaker 0
It is hard. Speaker 2
It's like you're always either I like your thing where you're talking about, like, filling buckets or whatever it is. It's like you're always taking from one bucket to put into another. So, like, the work bucket's full, but the bomb bucket's lower. The relationship bucket's a little lower. Mhmm. So it's like always trying to balance them all and Speaker 3
Fill the buckets. Speaker 0
Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2
You only have enough to fill, like, two of them or whatever. Speaker 1
So Speaker 0
Yeah. You have to create those boundaries. We do the same, like, with our phones, keeping them out. But, I mean, our kids see us working all the time. And it's true. Right? You're on your phone. And, I mean, everything's on your phone. Your calendar. You could be messaging your kids' friends' parents for a play date. There's lots of reasons, that you could be on your phone, but it's yeah. It is like, what do you want them to see? And you have to balance it. Speaker 1
But there's been so let's keep going that because I'm actually curious your perspective on this. I think to some degree, I resonate with you. I'm I could work probably all the time, sleep for two hours, and I just I don't know what it is. I just love to grind. Speaker 0
I resonate more with Drew. Speaker 3
That's why there's not two of those in our relationship. Speaker 1
Yeah. So it resonates with me with me a lot. I I have felt for sure since we started doing our thing, I have zero regret of having the kids see me at work. Our kids are a bit older too and they can understand those boundaries. I do remember three, four, five year olds don't get it and you can't, like it is actually not a good thing to be sitting on the computer while they're crawling all over you because they just have no context. But now that they're a bit older, I love that. They're seeing me build our thing. Do you feel the same? Do you feel any difference in that? Speaker 0
I don't want them seeing us working Speaker 3
all the time. Speaker 1
But yeah. I think my I think the question is, I I have less regret now building our thing than I did when I was building somebody else's thing, working in another company. Sure. Speaker 0
Yes. I do like that. We're building, and it takes hard work. And they know it's our own company, and they think it's super cool. Like, they'll ask us questions like, oh, who are you guys interviewing today on the podcast? Speaker 1
And Oh, yeah. And they they see these. We do not let the kids touch the the juice shots in the fridge. They see them. They all wanna take them to school. They're all over it. And we're like Oh, man. Like, we're like, no. No. I really do. I know. Speaker 0
We should Speaker 1
They'll just they'll, like, spray them at their friends. It just it won't be well used used. Yeah. But I guess can you imagine, I guess, grinding to the degree that you do for something that's not yours? Or is it just maybe it's just built in you to grind? Is that even I used to Speaker 3
work as a server for many years. And if COVID didn't happen where I had to be pregnant wearing a mask, I wonder if I would still serve because I loved it. And the fast pace and the bustle, which I worked for, I got the same guy for over ten years, and I really loved it. And it wasn't mine by any means. I'm definitely more fulfilled now, but by comparison. Speaker 2
I think Sarah is very much, like, do the task, check the box, and then that feels good for her. Speaker 1
You know? Whatever that Speaker 2
is, like, whatever it is. Yeah. She's just competitive and driven, and and it could be anything. And so I don't know. For you, I'm not sure. It has to be your own Speaker 3
I've always liked what I did. Right? I think you if you I think you have to like what you do. Speaker 1
Yeah. Speaker 3
What whatever it is. If you enjoy it, it doesn't feel like work to the same degree. Speaker 1
Agreed. Speaker 3
It doesn't feel like Speaker 2
I Speaker 0
think that's a really good point. You know, I hate to, like, shit on people that are in the corporate world because there's some people that just love that, and that's fine for them. Like, I mean, if it's not for you, then if you if you are going to work every day, hating your job, don't wanna be on these calls, like, it's draining your energy, Maybe time to think about something else. But Yeah. There's lots of people that have jobs that they love and Speaker 2
Totally. Speaker 0
You know, don't have those entrepreneurial, like, drive. Maybe not drive. Speaker 2
A good business too. You're probably finding ways to evoke that I own this feeling even though it's a company I'm working for. Right? So it's like Speaker 1
Totally. Speaker 2
You can still get that working Yeah. World or wherever if Speaker 3
And there's a lot of benefits to working for someone else. A lot. Benefits. Speaker 1
Benefits. Benefits. Benefits and stuff. Yeah. Speaker 2
Or just like you go home and it's, like, work off. Speaker 1
Yes. Speaker 0
You know? Like Security. Speaker 2
Life and worker, there's no separation at all. Speaker 0
There is no backup. There's no, like, oh, this person's covering for me while I'm out. No. Yeah. Speaker 1
Gotta Speaker 3
go. Nobody's doing it. Yeah. Speaker 1
Yeah. The the question around intentionality, I think, comes back to entrepreneurship or seems to. Because when we started, it was all about, let's be more intentional. Let's help people think and and act in a more intentional way. And it just attracted people who are aspiring to be or who were entrepreneurs because it just felt like if I wasn't making an active choice, that other track of doing a job would be like, an easier track, and you can just follow that track. There's there's just something inherently intentional about choosing this maybe harder path, and it seems to be who we resonate with, who resonates with us, which is part of that, I think, part of that question and trying to get a sense of that from from both of you. But if anyone's listening to this, and let's say they're in that corporate job, like like you or Drew, or they're in an industry where there's a there is an end at some point, and they're they're maybe feeling a bit stuck or, like, there's something that they might wanna do that's different. What advice might you give to somebody who's been in that? Speaker 3
Well, the way I transitioned is I always had my backup as you know, when I said I was a server, I had money coming in. Like, I didn't just, like, light everything on fire and, like, hope money was gonna come in right away. I kind of did it to me in a secure way that this was paying for my bills while I was building this in hopes that one day this would support me. So I was too scared to just, like, go into something. I needed to have my security blanket, which would, for me, was serving, which I could do on evenings and weekends Right. Outside the hours of my new job. So that made it less scary. Speaker 1
Okay. So something like build a bridge for yourself. It's not about lighting things on fire. Yeah. Five years of a bit at a time is a lot of progress. Yeah. Yeah. With that. Speaker 2
For me, I would say just be really honest with yourself. I think the context was, like, you're in a job and you're not really feeling fulfilled. Like, to really get to the root of, like, why that is. Like, are you not selling something that you're passionate about? If you're really just working for a paycheck and that's the only reason you're doing a job, then I think you can say with, like, pretty high certainty, you're not seeking your highest self when you're doing that. You're you're kinda just taking a shortcut. And, like, it's working for now, but I think if you could really be honest with yourself. And then also, like, why not pursue that passion, whether it's still working in the corporate world or whether it's starting your own thing or, like, whatever it is. Ultimately, it probably is some sort of fear. Speaker 1
Mhmm. Mhmm. Speaker 2
And everybody that starts something knows that anytime you fail, you're just learning. And then you're taking that learning and you're applying it and you're bettering yourself. Like, very few failures in life are final. Right? Like, pretty much death is the only was the only one. You know? Speaker 3
Death and taxes. Speaker 1
Yeah. So, yeah, Speaker 2
there's only finality in-depth. So it's like, well, you know, you could be afraid of something, but don't let that stop you from doing it. Just be honest with yourself and then pursue whatever it is that you wanna do. And you gotta have some faith that things are gonna work out, and you'll take your bumps and learn along the way. But that's usually where biggest leaps come in is when you have those big failures, so to speak. You learn so much, and then it's like, wow. When you encounter that next time, it's like, it's easy. And, you know, for maybe other people in a different situation, that would be a huge hurdle. So Yeah. Speaker 0
Yeah. I think people often see successful individuals or companies that are doing really well. They might look at you and be like, oh, I could never do what Drew's doing. It's like, you probably failed a lot before you got to where you know, there was probably, like, a whole bunch of bumps along the way. So it's like yeah. And it's scary for people until you actually do it. It's not that scary. And if you fail, it's not really a fail. It's more like a learning. Speaker 1
Totally. Yeah. Speaker 2
Change your direction. And then if you're open minded and you go with it, it's probably gonna be even better than you had originally envisioned anyways. Speaker 1
Yeah. It's like the ten year success story or overnight success story. Right? Yeah. Like, you started in twenty sixteen. Yeah. You started in twenty eighteen. Yeah. You know, ten years removed from that. You survived the ten years. Speaker 2
Mhmm. Speaker 1
And what does it look like? A good friend of ours, Hillary Gold, when we were just getting started Speaker 3
Photography. Speaker 1
Yeah. You know, Hillary. Speaker 0
She's amazing. Yes. Speaker 3
She does, headshots for a lot of our clients that are local. Yeah. Speaker 1
Another shout out to Hillary, also a guest on the podcast. Oh my gosh. I can't wait to listen to it. You know? But, Hillary I think when when we were starting, it was a conversation you were having with her, Whitney. She was describing what we were going through from the building progress. She's like, oh, like, I think we're a year in or six months in at that point. She's like, you have, like, an infant. And then a couple years later, it's like, okay. You've got, like, a toddler now. Speaker 2
Right. Speaker 1
So maybe she's leaving alone for an hour or thirty minutes in a room, but you can't, like, leave the house. You know? Speaker 3
Yeah. Speaker 1
You can't go on vacation. But, eventually, it'll be a teenager and then eventually, eventually, eventually. Yeah. And I don't think business years or human years, in regular terms, you can get to those stages faster, but I think it was a good a good metaphor that stuck with us. Yeah. This is great. Speaker 0
So great. Thanks for being here, guys. We love the conversation. Thank Speaker 3
you. Congratulations. This is Yeah. Yeah. You guys are very, very good speakers. Speaker 0
Oh. Well, you guys are very good guests. Thank you. Speaker 1
Thank you. Well, I think a couple of things we have to do, is, first of all, for people that are that listen and, again, we've talked with Alex Mistakis. Straight entertainment is amazing. So client of yours. Where might people find what's a great people way for people to stay in touch with you? Speaker 3
We have a website, ten talent management dot com. We have an Instagram, ten talent management. Where you can find what our clients are up to. Speaker 1
Awesome. Very cool. And what about you, Drew? Speaker 2
Good vibes juice dot com. And we also have Instagram at good vibes juice company. Yep. And, Speaker 0
buy the products in many stores. I actually well, I've from your Instagram, there was, like, a sneak peek of something big coming. And I don't know if you can share it, but I was looking forward to learning about what that is. Speaker 2
Yeah. We there's a few reasons I haven't let the cat over the bag on that one, and trust me, I want to. Speaker 1
Yeah. I bet. But, Speaker 2
yeah, it's our biggest launch ever. Speaker 0
So exciting. Speaker 2
Long riding on it. It's a little bit nervous times right now, but I think it's gonna go well. Speaker 1
So Oh, it it will. Speaker 2
Yeah. But we'll be announcing a big launch probably any day. Speaker 1
Awesome. Okay. Well to Speaker 0
that announcement. On that note Speaker 1
We're gonna do a shot. Speaker 3
We need Speaker 0
to do a shot. Okay. We gotta do a shot. Speaker 1
This is Speaker 0
not an alcoholic shot, people. Speaker 1
So before you go listening. So maybe let just talk us through what we what we've got. We got a few options in front of us. Speaker 2
Yeah. So we have our line of wellness shots. We have three of them. We have Sick Day, which features echinacea and ginger. We have Turmeric Daily, which features turmeric and ginger as well. Yeah. And then we have Get Well, which features elderberry and ginger. So kinda think, like I was saying earlier, like grandma's home remedy, but in a can very convenient on the go format. Speaker 1
No whiskey. Speaker 2
No whiskey. Speaker 1
Okay. Speaker 2
No preservatives, no additives, just all natural ingredients, holistic benefits. Yep. So great great way to support your immune system naturally. Speaker 1
Okay. So if I'm looking at this, so I'm feeling healthy today. Yep. Does that mean I should not have sick day, or is it more preventative? I guess I'm trying to get a sense. Which one should I which one should I go for? Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, they all have ingredients and benefits based off the different ingredient, which could serve you if you are sick or if you're trying to keep your immune system running optimally so that you don't get sick. Yeah. And, like, even sick day could have been kind of marketed almost as, like, a pre workout Sure. Speaker 1
Because of the Speaker 2
ginger and the boost. So, I don't think you can really go wrong. Turmeric daily is really good for people looking to incorporate turmeric into part of their diet for its many benefits. So I would maybe go with that one if you're feeling really good. Speaker 0
Sarah said that's her favorite, so she has to Speaker 3
have that one. Like turmeric daily. But I'm whatever one you guys want, I'm happy with it. K. Speaker 1
What are you going for, Whitney? I'm gonna have a Speaker 0
I'll have to get well. Okay. Speaker 2
Well and then I guess Speaker 1
you're rocking a sick day? Speaker 2
I'll do a sick day. Yeah. OG. Here we go. Speaker 0
K. Well, maybe we'll close it here, and then we'll do our shot. Speaker 1
We'll do a shot. We'll share we'll share a photo of us doing the shot advert. Drew, Sarah. Thank you for being here. There's lots more good conversation to come. Speaker 2
Cheers. Cheers. Speaker 3
Cheers. Speaker 0
That's it for today. If you like this episode, hit follow or subscribe wherever you're listening. And if you'd be willing to leave a rating or a review, we do read every single one. And it genuinely helps more people find the show and helps us keep doing what we're doing. And if you do like this episode and what we're talking about here, you'll probably love our one hundred percent free biweekly newsletter. It's called the Vienna five, and you can find the link to that in the show notes. Music for this podcast is by Moby, who we still think is very cool. We're glad you're here. Thanks so much for listening. 
