Sales, Science & UNBLOCKED Conviction with David Priemer | Finding Clarity in Career Paths and Career Pivots
Episode Details
Transcript
David Priemer is the Founder and Chief Sales Scientist of Cerebral Selling and is often called the “Sales Professor” for his unique blend of science, empathy, and storytelling. His approaches to sales and leadership have been featured in the Harvard Business Review, Forbes, Entrepreneur, and Inc.. He is also the author of two bestselling books, Sell the Way You Buy and The Sales Leader They Need, and a keynote speaker who has inspired audiences around the world.
In this episode, David shares how his path from scientist to sales leader shaped his belief that selling is not about pressure, it is about connection. We talk about his experience preparing for his TED Talk, his cancer diagnosis and the perspective it gave him, and how writing became one of the most powerful ways to clarify his thinking and crystallize ideas.
He also reminds us that we often overestimate the risk of change, and that doing hard things for their own sake can reshape how we lead and live.
🎧 Tune in to hear us talk about:
- How a scientist found his calling in sales and leadership
- The power of empathy and belief-driven selling
- Overestimating risk and learning to take bold steps
- Writing as a tool for clarity and conviction
- Lessons from cancer and what it taught him about trust and gratitude
- The connection between science, storytelling, and sales
- Why hard things often become the things that matter most
Enjoy this conversation with David Priemer.
Episode Links & Resources:
Book: The Sales Leader They Need
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Every other Thursday, we talk to people who got UNBLOCKED. You'll hear stories about finding clarity, career paths, career pivots and living with intention. Our guests tell us how they realized something had to change, made bold moves, and built lives that feel more aligned, more alive, and more intentional. We’ll share some of our own stories too, because we’re right here, figuring it out like everyone else.
David
When you think about your career journey, your the job title that you do, you know, might change, but I think your your personal inclination to be curious or to to behave in a certain way, like, that is the common thread that will serve you, you know, throughout your career. And I I still you know, twenty five years later, I still see that in my own career even though the jobs and pathways have changed. Whitney
Welcome to the Unblock Yourself podcast where we sit down with people who are chasing their dreams and bringing them to life. Today, we're hanging out with someone we've wanted on this podcast since the day we started it. His name is David Premer. He started his career as a research scientist and then fell into a twenty year sales career by accident during the dot com boom. After leaving sales at a company that was later acquired by Salesforce, his path in the corporate world was pretty much set. David shares how he began sharing his ideas and perspectives on the art and science of modern selling, which really opened up his voice and eventually led him to leave the corporate world and build his own business, Cerebral Selling. His work has been featured in the Harvard Business Review, Forbes Entrepreneur, and Inc. He's written two best selling books, Sell the Way You Buy and The Sales Leader They Need. We covered a ton in this conversation, his recent TEDx talk, yes, TEDx talk, his cancer diagnosis, and the huge shift in perspective that it gave him along with the unexpected lessons taught him about his favorite topic, sales. And one of my favorite moments is when he talks about how we're constantly overestimating the risk of change as we all do. Honestly, there's so much gold in here. If you're in any type of sales role, you should definitely read his books. But first, you should listen to this podcast. We hope you love this conversation with David Kramer. Greg
So we're gonna we're gonna hit you with a really hard ball question really to open things up because this has been the subject of debate since we first met, years ago. And whenever I introduce you to somebody, this always gets asked to me. So we need to solve it now once and for all. We have Canadian and, and US listeners. For Canadians, they know this, but for others, premiers are people who have, you know, political political power and authority in this country. Your name is David, I believe it's Primer, but we need you to you we need you to actually nail this for Whitney
us. Greg
Okay. Because it's spelled premier. It's spelled brimer. It's so once and for all, final word, how do you pronounce your name? David
Yeah. People have, like, automatic dyslexia when they read my last name because they it's a it's kind of a unique last name. Yeah. Not a lot of people with it. And, and in French, primier is, like, it means first. And so being Canadian, people wanna Frenchify my name all the time, but it is it's spelled differently. It's p r I e, not p r e m I. Right. And, it's pronounced primer. So just, you know, it's like a long e sound. P r if you think about it as p r e e m e r, then you'll get it right. But, but yeah. But it's funny because people who've known me for a long time, get it wrong, and I don't always have the, you know, nerve to connect you know, correct them. And so people who've known me for a long time say it wrong all the time, and it was okay. Eventually, I have to correct. But it's pronounced preemer, so Whitney
there you go. You just, like, let it slide. Like, it's fine. Yeah. I'm sure it happens all the time. Well, we've met before, actually. David, I don't know if you know that, but this is pre COVID. I actually think it was, like, February February maybe twenty twenty. I did an in person, sales program in Toronto that you were leading. So we've met a a while back. David
So nice. I feel you're like feel you're trying to, like, Maury Povich trap me here with, like, oh, isn't it true, David, that we've met before? No. Whitney
Do you remember? No. No. Nothing like that. Greg
Any anyway, we're gonna talk about your work as a sales trainer and as an author and some of that, David. But, we're just excited to dig into a bit of your journey, but also you've had so much exciting stuff going on lately. If if we could start actually start here with your trip to Philadelphia a few weeks ago where you ticked off a big to do in your bucket list. So can you talk to us about what it was like to become a TED speaker and what that experience that whole experience was like? David
Yeah. The headline is it was a ton of work, but but a lot of fun. You know, I believe, you know, when you're trying to unblock yourself and go out on your own and do your thing, like, part of the reason you do these things is just for the sake of doing hard things, you know, to kinda to your point, like, take it off your list. And I always said, like, I'm when I made my list of things I wanted to do, doing, like, a TED Talk was one of them. Not because, again, like, it's not a money making proposition. You don't get paid to do a TED Talk. Quite quite the reverse. I, you know, I paid to do it. And in fact, when I told my kids that I was gonna do a TED talk, they lost their shit. And they're like, dad, like, we gotta come with you to, like, do the TED talk. So we turned it into, like, a whole family of, you know, experience Aw. For those few days. And they had a blast just kinda, you know, being part of it and meeting the other speakers and seeing the talk. But, but, yeah, it it's a ton of work because unlike a normal talk for people who give talks out there, you know, it's number one, it's memorized. So it's word for word you have to say the thing, which is unusual because usually when you do it I don't ever I could do a keynote for two hours and I don't have to memorize it. So you have to memorize it word for word, but then have it come off as just sounding like a regular conversation. And it's it's kinda like competing in the in the Olympics where you have, you know, two minutes to do your sprint or you swim the pool, and no one sees what everything you've done before then, you know, or what you do after. And it's like, ugh. Like, you just wanna nail that, like, ten minute talk or however long it is. So, anyways, it was a ton of fun. I went on a lot of memorization walks. I would just walk around the neighborhood with my script and learn, like, a few lines at a time and just, like, repeat, repeat, repeat. But, you know, it's a good lesson for, again, for anyone. You know, when someone makes something look easy, it's because they put, like, hours and hours into it to make it look that way. And when you see other people let's say you see another practitioner who's like, oh, I'd love to do what this person does one day. You know, it it requires a ton of effort and practice to to get to a certain I'm not, like, the best TED speaker ever, but, like, to get to a lever level where it's like, yes, you know, this person can do it, it takes a lot of work. But that's that's the whole point. Like, you're doing it because you're you're into the journey of that mastery, and that comes with the, with the accomplishment. So, anyways, it was it was a ton of fun. Learned a lot. Family loved it, and, it was great. Whitney
Aw. And I feel like you've done a lot of exciting things, a lot of big things. You've written books. You've built your business ground up. Where does the TED Talk fall on the, like, scale of holy shit. I did this thing? David
It's like you know, I've been doing this, you know, in terms of my own practice for eight years, and it's, like, at the top. You know? Like, you know, it's up there with, like, writing a book. It wasn't like, oh, yeah. I could have done this, you know, two you know, four years ago, and it would have been equally good. It's, it's definitely a sense of accomplishment. And I and I will say as well, and this is something I didn't fully appreciate at the time because I mentioned my kids. When I wrote my first book, my kids were you know, this is in twenty twenty. This is when it it first came out. So my kids were smaller. And, what I didn't appreciate at the time was the impact that writing the book would have on them. Because these days, when your kids say, like, oh, like, what does your dad do? Like, they don't know. Like, it's it's you know? Unless you're an astronaut or a fashion designer or a, you know, like, it's a baseball player. It's hard to describe, you know, what you do. But what they would say is they would say to their friends, like, oh, like, well, he's written a book. Like, look, you know, here on Amazon or they'll kinda kinda look it up. And it it it does a couple things. Like, it it it normalizes hard things for them, and, and I didn't appreciate the impact it would have on them, even the TED Talk. Right? So when they found out it was going at digging a TED Talk, and I told you they lost their shit. They were so excited and so proud. And I and now I see it. Like, I see that they wanna do hard things because dad did hard things, and it seemed like, you know, something that was achievable. So, in in a way, now that my kids are older, doing it now was a good like, I don't know if they would have appreciated it when they were little. Now they, you know, they they get it more. So, I don't it's not the reason to do hard things, but for all of you out there listening to this, don't underestimate the impact that doing has or doing hard things has on the people around you. Whitney
Yeah. Exactly. Well, you haven't always been doing this work. So I know you talk in your some of your writing about your training as a scientist. I'd love to hear a bit about that. Like, how do you go from, you know, that work and studying the sciences to the work that you're doing now? Maybe just a few highlights because I'm sure that's a big story. But David
Yeah. Look. You know, having a so I have three kids, and and my oldest, I said told you, was in third year. My my, my middle child is, going to university next year. And so there's a lot of thought of, like, what are we gonna do when we grow up? And what are we gonna learn? And, like, how do we navigate and and chart that career path? And I don't know. Like, I'm I'm I'm one of these people. I'm like, most people who learn something in school don't go on to do that thing for the rest of their lives unless you're professional or, you know, a tradesperson, which is all great. And I was no different, especially in sales because we don't teach sales in school all that much. And so it's not a thing that you grow up thinking that you wanna do or be, also because, you know, people hate salespeople. So it's not a it's not why you know, it's not like emergency room doctor where, like, oh my gosh. That's so awesome if you could do that. So, I started my career as a research scientist and then got into sales by accident at the turn of the dot com boom where I joined the startup. I didn't know it was a thing that you can do. But while I was doing my graduate work, I I had participated in some career fairs where they had some recent grads come back and say, oh, like, did you know you can do consulting? And there's a world that's beyond science and engineering. So that's kinda where it kinda planted the seed. And then, you know, joining a start up at the dot com boom was, like, a really cool thing to do. So I decided to do that, and I I fell in love with sales because to me, it was like an engineering problem. You know, when you you say things to people like this, they get it. But when they you say it like this, they don't get it. You know? And, you know, in this case, this person opened up to me. And in this person, the case, they shut down. So there was all these, like, trends and patterns. And so, as someone who loves to be curious and discover what these pathways are, sales was, like, just an amazing playground to do all that. But then I also realized, you know, when you tell people you're in sales, you become the enemy. And so it's it's part of this thing. You love this thing, but then people hate you. So how do you do this job in a way that helps you, you know, maybe rehabilitate the profession, but also allows you to do it with kinda high conviction? So, anyways, I fell in love with sales and I I spent the next, you know, I'll call it, like, twenty years across four high growth tech companies. They all ended up being acquired. My third company was acquired by Salesforce. I came over with the ship. I was at Salesforce for five years. I ended up running small business sales for the Eastern US for Salesforce. And that's where the the journey began. And that's actually where I started doing some of the the writing. You know, as you think about how do you navigate your career and get into the next thing, you know, people sometimes will tease me and they'll say, are your parents angry with you that you spent all that time in school only to end up in sales? You know? And I I said, no. Like, I use everything that I learned as a research scientist almost every day. And in fact, when I was in Philadelphia giving my TED Talk, the first time I was in Philadelphia was, when I was in grad school, and we we made a road trip there for a conference that I was speaking at. And we were walking by the Philadelphia Convention Center where the event was when I was there for my TED Talk. And I was walking by with my daughter, who's now an engineering student, and I took a selfie. And I sent it to my, grad school supervisor who you know, it's been you know, twenty five years since, since we worked together. But, I just said, I just want you to and we've been in touch since then. But I said, I just want you to know, you know, I I remember this experience with you. Now twenty five years later, I'm here with my daughter. And I want you to know, like, everything that we did together, I still use every day, you know, and, I appreciate you. And it was it I did I also didn't even anticipate the impact it would have on her, my my my professor supervisor, but, she was so happy that, you know, I shared that with her. And, so I I think when you think about your career journey, your the job title that you do, you know, might change. But I think your your personal inclination to be curious or to to behave in a certain way, like, that is the common thread that will serve you, you know, throughout your career. And I I still you know, twenty five years later, I still see that in my own career even though the jobs and pathways have changed. Greg
I mean, even the name of the business, it's it's called Surreal Selling. But you seem to bridge this gap between science and empathy in in everything you do. Like, have you always kind of had that combination of those two things? The sort of first part of the question? The second part is, like, how do you bridge that gap between the science side and then the more empathetic human side of what selling when done well really is all about? Whitney
Mhmm. Greg
I think David
I still think they're related. People say, oh, is sales more of an art than a science? But, you know, art is also science. So, you know, it's all the same thing. And and here would be, like, an example. So all I I was I recently wrote actually an article about this. I was talking to one of my clients, VP of sales, and she said, you know what? We we have this problem where we we call our customers and we have this initial conversation, and it seems to go well. And then, like, we never hear from them again. You know, I feel like she's like, I feel like there's some unspoken objection here where they're not not calling us back for a reason, and I don't know why. And I was kinda like, well, you know, if someone's not calling you back, maybe you're not worth speaking to. You know, like, what are you you know, I'm saying it tongue in cheek, but also the truth. I'm like, what are you saying on that first call that makes the other person wanna call you back? You know? And so this is, like, where the empathy comes in. It's funny. I was, working with a leadership team at Salesforce, and they said, you know, one of the things that we ask our leaders to do is, engage in this executive alignment. So if we're working with a customer and the the sales rep is talking to the customer, as a as the sales rep's manager, we need to be connecting with other leaders in that customer's organization and, you know, to continue the conversation. And I said, you know, I get why that's good for you. As a leader, it's good for me to have relationships with other leaders in the customer's organization so I can start calling in favors and getting insight and all the I I get why that's good for you. If I was your customer as an executive, why the hell would I wanna be friends with you? And I say, you know, I I say this just, you know, for hyperbole to be like, like, this is what empathy is. So why would they wanna talk to you? Because the answer to that question is, like, you know, does point you to the path of, like, okay. Here are the tactics I need to use. Here's the science I need to invoke. You know? But, like, it all starts with empathy. Like, why would someone wanna talk to me in the first place? Why can't they just do this online? Why wouldn't they just wanna do you know, like or why would they just ignore me? Because, like, I'm not necessary. Like so it does start at this point of empathy, like, thinking the way your customers think. And that's, like, in my first book, sell the way you buy, that was the idea is to say, like, let's think about the pathways and mechanisms by which human beings make purchasing decisions so that we can sell to them like that. Like, it seems straightforward enough, but in the world of sales, there's a lot of things that people do where as an outsider, you scratch your head and you're like, why are they doing that? You know, like, that that stuff would never and this is what the epiphany I had at Salesforce was that a lot of the tactics that my sales team was using was not categorically ineffective or unethical. But they're just things that, like, if I was the customer, I wouldn't I wouldn't bite. Like, this stuff would never work on me. So then the question becomes so that's the empathy piece. Then the question becomes, okay. Well, then what would work on you? And then that's where the science comes in. Whitney
Yeah. I love that. Like, actually putting yourself in your customer's shoes. Like, you know, what a concept. You need to look at it from their point of view. I'm curious, David. Like, how did that transition look like? Did you just, you know, throw your corporate job away and go all in on cerebral selling, or was there a transition period? Like, what did that I'm curious what that looked like for you, especially having, you know, a young family at the time. David
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I mean, first of all, I think a lot of people overestimate the risk involved in doing lots of things. Oh, I could never do that. You know? And then it just becomes this insurmountable fear. And the reality is, and this is with everything, is that it's not as bad as you think it is. But the way this started for me was when I was back at Salesforce and I had all these ideas percolating in my head, they said, well, do you wanna, you know, share they let they liked when entrepreneurs come in from the outside, you know, because they know in order to grow, like, we have to have these fresh ideas. So they said, hey. Would you do you wanna write for, like, the Salesforce blog? Like, you can write some articles and see how you know? That would be great. I'll write some articles. I also started running a bunch of, like, internal events and, you know, things that were just kind of aligned with my mindset. You know, some internal trainings and some talks, you know, with the reps and so on. And so I started to write. And the great thing about writing, and this is my advice for, like, everyone, is, like, the act of writing and crystalizing your thoughts, you you know, does a couple things. It helps people from the outside understand who you are and what you believe. So if you're they're ever thinking of working with you or, you know, in the future, you're not a stranger. They've they've already been exposed to your ideas. And secondly, and this is also one of those things that, like, you don't think about initially when you start writing, is that the act of writing actually crystallizes the ideas better in your own head than if you were just to spew these things. And I found that, you know, I developed training programs and curriculum, like, over the course of the years. But when I started writing about those things and then writing the books, the curriculum got better. Because now I realized, you know what? Maybe I haven't been explaining it the best possible way. Because when you write something, you have to explain it in a way that resonates with someone when you're not sitting beside them and can elaborate. Right? So I love the act of writing. And and, again, like, AI won't help you here. Yeah. Because it you know, it's just a shortcut that doesn't create the neuron connections that you need. Right? So, that's how it started. So I just started writing for the Salesforce blog, and then it started to get shared around. And then the content ended up getting picked up by, like, Forbes and Entrepreneur Magazine. So I was like, oh, this is great. Like, I should just keep doing this. And I did it throughout my career at Salesforce. And then when I left Salesforce, I kept doing it. I kept writing, you know, for Salesforce. And the content by the time, you know, I started my business, I I probably had about twenty five articles that I'd written, and they were kind of, like, all over everywhere. So when my friends, you know, Whitney and Greg, say, like, oh, hey, David. Like, do you have an article on this? I'm sending you, like, to all corners of the Internet. I'm like, I should just have my own website. This is dumb. So I created Cerebral Selling one night just to have my own website to post content to, And, and that's where it started. So by the time you know, yada yada this. But, like, by the time I started my business Mhmm. I had lots of content, and I and I knew that the content had resonated because I had started a website for fun out of the goodness of my heart, you know, for free, you know. And I think that's an important thing as you're trying to think about what is it that you're gonna do, you know, in terms of your business or should I go out on my own? My advice is number one, write. But number two is to look back at what you were doing for free out of the goodness of your heart because you were so passionate about it, you know, and and maybe turn that into your business. And that's what happened with me where I said, this should be my business. You know, like, why is this not? You know? Now there were things that I did to kinda dip my big toe into the water of, like, okay. How do I monetize it, and how do I develop my curriculum and all that kind of stuff? But the initial spark was was just the thing I had already been doing. Greg
There's so much good there. Wanna ask on behalf of of people who we've worked with and others who might listen to this who say, I'm being generous. I'm doing something I love. I'm chasing my passion. I just really don't like coming across as salesy, which is something we've heard multiple times. What advice would you give there? Because I think this ties right into the cerebral selling, sell the way you buy mindset, and would love your take on that. David
For sure. Well, look. I have an article on on my blog called how to sell if you hate selling, because a lot of people, you know, hate selling. And a lot of people, even in sales, don't like talking to salespeople. So it's not a surprise. That's okay. The advice I get so in that article, I give kind of three pieces of advice. Number one is instead of leading with a pitch and I see this I saw this a lot, and I still see it a lot in the in the mainstream sales, space, which is when you feel like you're pitching someone and you feel a little gross, it limits your ability to pitch with conviction. You know, people can whether you believe or not in what you're selling, people can tell. And I saw this a lot actually, like, on the sales floor at Salesforce where I would have a lot of these sales reps with, like, tons of activity, like, lots of calls, emails, and, like, no pipeline. And so I would start to listen to their phone calls just to be like, maybe I can pick up on something. And imagine I'm listening to all of these, if I can just, you know, again, use some hyperbole, these kids that we've told to call grown ups and talk about how we're gonna change their world with the future of whatever. K? Now these kids have never done the job of the person that they're calling on. You know? And to them, it's like an academic exercise. Oh, did you know that we can help you do blah blah blah blah blah? And so as you can imagine, when I started listening to these calls, I noticed that the reps sounded like they were bothering the customer. And they sounded like one of my kids when they're about to hit me up for something they think I'm gonna say no to already. Like, that's the way they sound. Right? So I ended up writing an article in Harvard Business. This came out, like, over six maybe six and a half years ago now. It was called how younger salespeople can, you know, win older customers. And it was about this idea of, like, how do you manifest conviction when you have none? And I'm not saying that as an entrepreneur who, let's say, hates selling, that you don't have conviction. You love what you do, and you probably have a lot of conviction around it, but you don't like when it sounds like a pitch. So what I tell people is, like, instead of leading with a pitch, lead with beliefs. You know? Well, at Cerebral Selling, we believe that. You know? At Apple, at Uber, at Tesla, whatever it is, like, we believe that. And we we drop what I call this a belief statement, that it it sounds different. It aligns with the beliefs and feelings of your customers. You know? So, you know, like, for example, you know, I might say, you know, hey. Look. At Cerebral Selling, you know, I believe that people love to buy things, but they hate talking to salespeople. You know, like, something something like that, where now if you believe what I believe, all of a sudden, now you're leaning in saying, well, tell tell me more. So I say, like, number one is to lead with beliefs and not pitches. And by the way, like, the sign and I always go back to, like, the science and the data. The science and the data and the research says that the majority of buyers are belief driven, meaning they make decisions about which products and services to purchase, where to work, what companies to invest in based on the alignment of the belief system. Right? And it you want an example of this? Look no further than Elon Musk. K? What other car companies value fluctuates up and down based on how people feel about the CEO, right, and what they believe? I can't even name another CEO of any other car company. You know? Right? And so when Tesla stock, you know, starts to tank because people don't like what Elon Musk believes, that has nothing to do with the car. Right? Everything's so I say with for entrepreneurs, like, lead with what you believe, not the pitch. K? Number one. Number two, just tell more stories. You know, like, stories don't sound like pitches if they're done the right way in the human, you know, in a human way. And in fact, my TED Talk, which I wish the video was out yet, it's not out yet, but, it was about what I call the pitch formula, which is studying, the formula behind how infomercial products are pitched, like the storytelling formula, and I break that down so that you can use that formula to be more persuasive in your everyday life. So if you're struggling on, like, how do I tell the story of my product or service or solution, there's a formulaic approach. There's lots of different formulas. But, like, I I talk about one in this in my TED talk. It was the the talk was called why we're bad at buying things, the framework behind irresistible offers. So it's like how to tell your story. So I say, like, in general, don't pitch, just tell more stories. Right? Because humans are preconditioned to storytelling and to listen to them. They're so much easier for you to tell and re and and for your customers to retell inside their own organizations. And if you tell them the right way, there's gonna be an emotional like, stories invoke an emotional response. So that's great. And then my last piece of advice is just, like, create lots of content. I can't tell you how how much business or or connections I've made Yeah. Because of people who've read one of my books or read an article, and they're strangers. And they reach out and they say, I think how you think. You know? And then and we go from there. And now I don't have to convince them about anything because they've already seen it. Whitney
This is so good. I'm actually taking notes because it's funny. Greg will not allow me on, like, sales calls that we do because I somehow convince people not to buy what we're selling. And to be fair, I've had a very successful sales career, and I've but for some reason, when it comes to, like, selling what we're or, you know, selling what we're, what we have, like, it's so much harder than selling someone else's stuff. It's hilarious. Greg
And and I found the opposite to be true, which is so interesting for for us. But I think it comes back to that belief. I believe that we have something that can help people. And so when I'm talking to somebody who I think I can help, I'm not really talking about this program or this retreat or this thing. It's like, you've gotta let me help you. Yeah. There's there's an interesting thing about conviction. I like how you talk about that so much in your writing. David
Yeah. I'll give you one other piece of it. This is just another piece of sales advice. There's a lot of people out there who believe they can help other people, and I think it's that's great as a starting point. I get prospected into all the time. People wanna sell me things all the time. Everyone kinda sounds the same. And as a buyer, like, I don't know who to believe. Right? Like, who actually has this? Because it's very easy, you know, in some ways to kind of nail I mean, you know, I'd say it's not always easy to nail the conviction statement, but it's, you know, it's easy enough. And then the question is, okay. Who do I trust? And I tend to trust people who deeply understand not the end results or the product or the benefit I'm after. Oh, you wanna do more with less? You wanna grow your business? You wanna get unstuck? But who understand the problem. Here's why. You know, imagine you're on Instagram and you see someone who's like, oh, we'll help you lose weight and get in shape and get in the best shape of your life or whatever. It's like, how how hard is that? You know? Like, okay. Diet, exercise, pill, like, whatever. Like, it's not that's not the hard part. The hard part is why in the face of all of this knowledge, you know, in terms of, like, how to solve this problem, why have you not been successful? For all the entrepreneurs out there, people are looking to get unstuck. This isn't like rocket science. K? You know, start writing, lead with what you believe, take the risk, go out there on your own. Just do that. Like, everyone says the same thing. The question is, why in the face of all of this knowledge of what to do have you not done it? And so I always look to and I say this to salespeople, the extent that you can go deeper into the problem, why it exists, why it's so hard to solve, you know, what people have typically tried in the past and why that didn't work, that's where the the trust starts to come to play. Greg
This is great. Thank you. Thank you, David. And we'll bring you in to rework all of our copy. Right. Yeah. Whitney
Hey there. Quick pause, and we'll get right back to the show. In January, we launched Unblock Yourself, a program designed to help people take action on an idea or a professional change that they're looking to make. Since then, we've run three groups. Unblockers have launched new businesses or side hustles. They've changed careers and launched initiatives to power social change. If I'm honest, we wanted it to be good, but it's been even more powerful than we could have ever imagined. Our next group kicks off in January where we'll be helping another group of people start the new year strong and in action. If anything I said excites you or scares you, it might be what you're looking for. Learn more at vienna dash weights dot com slash unblock yourself, or email us at unblock yourself at vienna dash weights dot com. Alright. Back to the show. Greg
We'd love to to make a bit of transition because I believe it's a part of your story that informs some of how you think and some of it just the the conviction you have about your own work. Maybe not. Maybe this has always been a presence for you, but you you we're recording this at the end of October, which is Breast Cancer Awareness Month, and I think we can safely say there's probably not anyone who has not in some way been affected by cancer in their lives, either themselves or somebody that they know closely. But you have shared that you had your own journey with cancer, and are a survivor, and you wrote about this. And you talked about, as you would, what having cancer taught you about sales. And you in in an article that we will absolutely link to in the in the notes of the show because it's I I think one of my favorite articles that you've written, I don't know how you feel about it, but it's one of my favorites. You had five things that you learned about sales. I love your take on two of those lessons specifically. One is the trust can be built instantly under the right circumstances, And then the lesson number five is be grateful that you get to do this. So can you elaborate on those two lessons of how that cancer taught you about sales and selling? Mhmm. David
Yeah. Look. You know, I refer to this in in the context of discovery as the science of self disclosure. You know, a lot of especially in sales, I'll make the transition. A a lot of sales treats the interaction between buyer and seller like one where if we just ask people questions, they'll answer us. Who's your boss? What's the budget? Who's gonna sign this thing? How long has this problem been going on? How much is this costing you? Is this embarrassing? Like, no one's gonna answer your questions just because you asked nicely. You know? To do that, you have to get them to trust you and open up. And what I found, you know, when I was diagnosed with cancer, I didn't wanna tell anyone because I didn't want them to think differently of me. I hated people asking well meaning people asking me how how are you doing? How are you feeling? I'm like, I know you you mean well. And I I, you know, like, I'm not saying you shouldn't ask, but I just didn't wanna become that person where it was like, now it's part of my identity where it's like, I'm always, you know, I'm stuck with it. So I didn't tell anyone. I mean, I told my family and, you know, certain people, but, like, I didn't tell my team at work. You know, I, and shoot. It's funny. Like, I didn't even tell my kids Greg
Wow. David
Until they were older. Like, you know, maybe until a couple years ago, a few years ago, they didn't know. You know? They knew daddy had a boo boo and I had to go to the hospital and have an operation and all this kind of stuff, but, like, they didn't know the extent of it. And so I didn't tell people. But then there were people that I found I opened up to very quickly about it. And it wasn't necessarily, you know, because I had known them for a long time or, you know, anything like that. You know, like, I had a colleague who was telling me about his father who was going through, like, a a complex, cancer diagnosis, and I started talking to him about that. And I had a, you know, old friend from many years ago that, whose husband, you know, passed away from cancer. And I, you know, I kind of, you know, we hadn't spoken in years, and I just started, you know, talking about it. And I and I started to look at, like, who was I opening up to and who was I not? You know? When it was just like a regular person, I'm like, they don't need to know. Like, you know, I don't want them to think differently. I mean, but but when it was someone who I either could help with my story or I believed understood what I was going through, you know, I would open up very quickly about it. And so I realized, like, that is exactly the same, you know, in sales where people don't wanna tell you things because you're the enemy. Right, until they appreciate that you're, in a position to either, a, help them or totally understand what they're going through. Right? And so, so, you know, that's the really important thing is that the the the human connection, when it comes to the science of self disclosure. Because trust, which is like we think about it as the holy grail in sales, that can be built, like, instantaneously under the right circumstances. Right? And now I'm I'm much more open to, you know, talking about it. You know, I you know, again, I didn't, you know, I didn't talk about it for many years. But, so, yeah, that that's, like, that's the biggest lesson, is that trust can be built instantaneously. And every time I talk to a customer who says and it's usually, like, in a one on one kind of situation where they say, okay. Yeah. I probably shouldn't be telling you this, but first of all, that's so helpful when they tell you things that, you know, you know, I shouldn't tell you this, but. And it I and I never feel as the seller, like, oh, you know, score. Like, I've got them to divulge their secrets to me. I I whenever that happens, I think, how great is this? Michael, thank you for telling me because it makes this so much easier for me to help you when you're, you know, you're honest. But the fact that people open up and say, I probably shouldn't be telling you this, but if you ever get to that in your sales interaction, you know that you've done something right, you know, because they feel comfortable opening up to you. So that's and and it can happen in an instant. I've had that with strangers. Greg
You know you know a bit of of my story, and people who listen to this may know bits of of my story. But if I were to evaluate the quality of conversations I've had with friends, but probably more specifically with strangers since all of that happened, when people know that about me, know that I have a wife who died, and I've had to figure out a next chapter past that. The quality of conversations are not even comparable. I've heard more stories of what people are going through and what challenges they've faced and what they've had to overcome. This made me feel, like, as horrible as that experience was, what a gift to now have that part of my story so that I can connect with people in such a different way. So, anyway, just wanted to reflect that back that it's a it's a big one. David
Hundred percent. It's it's a it's a strange relationship you have with that experience because if you had to start from the beginning, you would never say, oh, I I would like that to happen. You know? But then once it happens, and now you have no choice, you're you feel grateful that it happened. You know, you wouldn't ask for it, but now I'm I can't imagine it not be that you know, that not being the case. Everyone has something. It forms us who we are as people. And so now I can't imagine having not, you know, had that experience. But that also leads into, you know, the part about gratitude. Greg
So let's let's jump there. Nice nice dovetail. Yeah. Be grateful that you get to do this. If you could elaborate on that, that would be fantastic. David
Yeah. It's funny. Like, when you read that article, I want people to know that I don't share those thoughts from a position of mastery. Like, I went through this thing, and now I've figured it all out. And I've mastered these things, and now I'm at one with the universe. Because all of those things are things that I still struggle with, you know, that people still struggle with. And, you know, again, like, it's not that when you go through any of these things, you've achieved a level of mastery. You know? But, why do I write these things and talk about them and and the gratitude is because these things are hard. You will always be looking over your shoulder, worried. No matter how long it's been, you know, since you've had it, you know, you're in a different you're a different person. It's like going to war. You're a different person than you were before. And so things like certainty, you know, I'll go for, you know, routine scans every year and blood work or whatever, and I am not cool when I'm waiting for test results. You know? I still struggle with the, you know, certainty, and gratitude is one of those things. And I remember, after I had, you know, my first surgery, I was doing a start up, and I remember thinking after that surgery that none of this is important. It was like a few days after I got home from the hospital, and I had two, you know, kids at the time. They were little, and we went to the park, and I was sitting there on the bench watching them play. And I'm just like, nothing else matters except for this. But then a funny thing happens, which is both good and bad. You snap back into normal everyday life. Right? Now you're, you know, you're worried about your quota and the q four number and all this kind of stuff, and you forget what it was like, you know, in that moment. It's like you get your future back. So I write these things partially to help others and partially to help me to remember, you know, what's important because it is so easy to, like, snap back into normal everyday life, and now you're pissed because someone cut you off in the Costco parking lot. And I say this to you now, like, clear headed. It doesn't matter. But in that moment, it you know, it's very easy to get wrapped around the axle, and I still do. Whitney
Oh, so good. Greg
Before we move to to close things out, you shared your lessons that that having cancer, gave as it pertains to selling and sales. Just wanna give you the opportunity to add if there's anything that goes beyond the the cerebral selling brand of of the experience to reflections that you have on on how it's maybe shaped your life in a different way. David
Yeah. There's a saying that I have I mean, it's not I don't know. I'm just saying, but I say this a lot to my wife and we say it to each other, which is, like, you have to live. And so sometimes it's, you know, it's it's tricky to figure out, okay, what should I invest in? What should I spend money on? Should we go on this vacation? Should we not? Should we do this? Should we not? And, and a lot of there are things that, you know, the the tie gets broken by the statement you've you have to live. And, so, I'm not a fancy person. You know, I I wear the same thing, you know, every day, my, you know, my, you know, my t shirt and, you know, sweatpants or whatever it is. But, there are certain things that I have no problem investing in. You know, family vacations, you know, we're always, like, pretty religious about taking family vacations. I go on vacations with just my wife as well. You know, it it's very easy to put things off and say, well, I'll do that, you know, later on. I remember my, my wife and I, we we'd always joke about how we have to, like we have to go to the gym. We have to, you know, be in shape because later when the kid you know, when the kids are all moved out, we gotta go to Europe and walk together in Europe. And, you know, over the last few years, we've taken just mommy, daddy vacations, and we've we've gone to Europe and we're walking. And and we said, look. We're we're doing it. You know? Like, we're we're old. You know? We're doing it. And and so I I say that what has the experience, you know, taught me? Like, you have to live, and there are certain things where you're just like, you you know, let's not wait to do this. You know? Like, you we we should just live. You know, the work will always be there. You know? I I love to work, by the way. Like, I you know, I love it. I love to be engrossed in what I do. I've always been that way for better or for worse. That's why I love the startup hustle and the the in life and being in sales, which is really, you know, bad profession to be in if you wanna have a lot of peace. But, you know, but, you know, I can't deny that. But this idea of, like, you just you know, you have to live because who knows? There's no certainty, you know, in life, and you don't wanna have any regrets. And that's that's part and parcel of why I decided to start my business and write a book and do all the do the TED Talk. Because I'm like, I just don't wanna get to you know, it'll never be enough, but I just don't wanna get to the end and be like, oh, I should've done that. You know? And so regret can be a very powerful motivator, you know, in a lot of ways. And and and even just decisions you're thinking of making, you know, if you frame it through the lens of how will I feel if I don't do this? You know, will I be okay, or will I regret it? And if I'm gonna regret it, then I should probably do it. So, yeah, I'd say it shaped my point of view in terms of just you gotta live and and certain things you have to do under the banner of living. Whitney
Love that. That's so good. Well, thank you, David. This has been an awesome conversation. One question we do like to ask, is is there a book, And it could be yours. And we will put your books no matter what in in the show notes for people to find. But is there a book or a podcast or something that, like, you've loved or you've taken a lot from that you think other people should read or listen to? David
Yeah. Well, so, you know, besides my books, one of my favorite books, not on sales, but just on everything, is called The One Thing, The Surprisingly Simple Truth Behind Extraordinary Results, and people have maybe heard of that book before. I I became like a one thing fanatic. So, like, I have a couple different versions of it, but this is like what apparently, this one was released in the UK, and somehow we got our hands on it here, and this is kind of what it looks like. You know, it's funny how life works. I was on a plane coming back from Dallas, and on my flight was one of my favorite authors, another page two author named Michael Bongay Steiner, who wrote this book called The Coaching Habit. I read an article that he wrote about how he, you know, used this publisher, and that's how I found my publisher. I had never met him before. We're on the way back from Dallas, and, we were sitting like a row apart. And I I hate talking to people, like, you know, randomly on you know, in the wild. And I said, hey. But I was regretting. Like, if I don't talk to him now, like, this is gonna I'm gonna regret this. So I went in and talked to him. But he so he posted the picture. He took a selfie of us, and he posted it to social media. And then one of the people that liked the photo was Jay Papasan, who's the author of The One Thing. So I'm like, I'm gonna shoot my shot. So I reach out to Jay, and I'm just like, hey. I saw that you liked this picture of me and Michael. I'm like, I just want you to know, like, I'm a huge One Thing fan. And he replied, and he's like, oh, that's awesome. Tell me, like, you know, what what do you love about it? And so I'm like, alright. Buckle up. You asked for it. And I wrote him, like, a thing like this. And he was like, oh my gosh. You know? So we we ended up, having a one hour Zoom chat, and, he invited me to be on his podcast, which they only record in, on-site in Austin. So we've been playing tag and trying to, you know I was actually in Austin a couple weeks ago, but he was not there. Anyways, so I'm I love the one thing. And so it's a good good lesson of, like, you never know. Like, reach out to people. The authors of these books, you know, sell the way you buy. On the cover, it has a quote from Dan Pink, who I I love Dan Pink. And, and people are like, how did you get Dan Pink to endorse your book? I'm like, I asked him. You know? And he's a nice guy. So so anyways, I love this book, The One Thing, The Surprisingly Simple Truth behind Extraordinary Results. It's a book about focus. It's a book about, like, asking, like, you know, what is it that you want? But it's it's really gets into the science and really tactical about like people who have achieved great things and the focus they bring and and how to ask yourself, you know, how to, you know, go from what you're doing today to kind of, you know, a world where you can achieve extraordinary things by, you know, focusing. So I found it's a great book for life, for entrepreneurship. And so it's it's usually, like, the number one book I recommend Greg
to people. Love it. David, we are so grateful that you took this time to spend with us to share some, I think, just tremendous insights with anybody who, with anybody who listens to this. You we give you full permission to share this episode with anybody who's been calling you by the wrong pronunciation of your name in your personal network, and we appreciate that too. We love it when people listen to the show. So we're we're just so grateful for that. As a as a kinda closing thought from from you, is there anywhere that you'd like people to connect with you or find you if they hear this and and want to reach out. David
Yeah. Look. I'm you know, LinkedIn is is probably, like, the the number one place people find me. Just make sure you spell my name correctly so you you find me. And then, yeah, you can you know, I give away, you know, tons of stuff for free, so you can always go to cerebral selling dot com or look me up on Amazon if you wanna check out my books. But, yeah, if you wanna connect with me, LinkedIn is a great place. Greg
Perfect. Well, yeah, thank you. We'll see you in Toronto for another walk and talk soon, I hope and we hope. We just appreciate you being here. So thank you. David
Thank you. Yeah. Whitney
Thanks so much. Appreciate it. Go Jays. Go Jays. By David
the time this comes Whitney
out sleep. David
I know. It's Yeah. Whitney
I know. What's gonna happen? What's gonna happen? Greg
It's it can be just a weird time warp listening to this because you're wearing your Jays hat today. And by the time this episode comes out, the two things they'll that will have we hope will have happened by the time this episode comes out is that your TED Talk is live and that the Jays have won the World Series. Thank you for listening to the Unblock Yourself podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to follow and rate the podcast. Your ratings and feedback mean the world to us. We'd love to stay connected with you via our biweekly newsletter called the VNF five, where we share ideas and advice that we found helpful on our own journey to live with more intention. You can also find us on LinkedIn and Instagram. For those Gen Z listeners out there, no, we're not on TikTok. But if enough of you ask for it, we'll just have to do it at some point. The links to find us on social are in the show notes. The Unblock Yourself podcast is edited and produced by Bespoke Productions Hub. Thank you for being here. 
